ProFound Dark Ace Review

[Mr. Doug]

Read the article here: http://www.puttertalk.com/2007/03/11/profound-dark-ace-review/

This topic is now open for discussion.

[Mr. Doug]

Here are a few pictures of the ProFound booth. (Their staff bags were VERY cool!)

[ckay]

Nice review...to me it is just another gimmick.  I don't see why the trend to tackling putting has become scientific because putting is such a personal aspect of the game.  If you take a look behind the AGSI technology, it too is designed to get the ball rolling earlier and has been proven to do so with high speed camera technology, and in many instances improving reverse RPM into forward RPM by hundreds of revolutions of improvement.  My only question is if the technology works, why aren't putters like the AGSI and other MOI sticks more prevalent on tour? 

Great review Doug...while I'm not a fan of the stick, I can appreciate the innovative thinking behind the alignment aid. 

[ProfoundPutters]

ckay.
Thanks for the comment.

I agree that feel for some is more important, but my quest as an optometrist was to design a system that gives you the same visual feedback as the mirror on the ground when practising. My system will give you that same visual feedback, even without having to focus on the alignment indicators themselves. The distortion of parallel lines framing the ball is very depending on degree of misalignment, and  also the appearing orange warning color gives confidence and higher possibility to repeat a perfect set up position and aim with eyes over the ball. Or more correctly eyes on the plane consisting of ball center and target line.

I believe confidence is the most important thing in putting. confidence in your stroke (for those who have a consistant stroke) and confidence that you are aimed correctly.
A skew view when NOT over the ball is just not correct, however some pro's are used to that skew view(eyes inside that plane) and perform well in that position. But they do not play with putters that can communicate to them if they have a consistant set up position, even if I (and rules of geometry and optometry) claim it to be incorrect. So there is no confidence to get from their putters in terms of visual feedback.

My putter has the least amount of visual noise, which means you only see things that either help set up position, aiming, or stroke parh, nothing more.
This way my putter will help confidence in set up and stroke path, all you should see is a basic T-shape with parallel lines framing the ball and nothing else. Another thing with high contrast systems is that you don't need to focus on the indicators themselves, they are detectable in the field of vision or peripheral vision if you like. This reduces the number of times you need to focus during a round (which minimizes visual fatigue), and compared to other great alignment systems that are not high contrast, the accuracy is lost when you have moved the focus to where it should be, at the back of ball and the hole! Our 3Dinsight system is the first and only system ever developed framing the ball visually in 3D (for critical and image changing properties when misaligned and/or set up incorrectly). BTW this is only the first out of 6 patented alignment systems you will see from Profound Putters.

The shape is very forgiving, so saying science is not important in putting, is not right.
For example, my patented design has the highest MOI ever in s single piece steel head. The 2-ball has 3400 g/cm2 and my Dark Ace has 5462 g/cm2, which is 61% higher. That is an incredible high number campared to the design of the 2-ball, since they are comparable in production method and weight. You will notice the importance of science when you strike the ball towards the toe or heel, then the Dark Ace goes straight, but the 2-Ball does NOT.

We did a test at bobby Graces robot at the merchandise show, and the Dark Ace outperformed the 2-Ball both in straightness, but also in terms of length difference on mishits. To put is short, the McGregor staff were pretty quick to remove the indicator dot's of the Dark Ace results on their test green at the robot testing......

So science is very important, also in the feel part...

I wanted to keep a steel face for pure audio feedback, but didn't want to have a dead face in terms of feel/rebound. so I put the insert behind the face, to give a little rebound, probably the first ever insert behind the face this way.

So actually, there is not one single gimmick with this putter, cause every line and edge on this design has a reason and a thought behind it. The design is enhancing the parallel feel for the best margins and least potential for side spin on the ball, cause you will intuitively keep the face square through impact with the parallel trailing fins letting the railroad track go towards the target. This in turn will give you a better forward roll with no side spin or rotation in the head, so distance get's more predictable as well.

The important thing before concluding about new porducts, is always, TRY IT first.

To answer the question regarding distribution, we are a new company and had tremendous respons at the show, with 43 comapnies in 23 new countries that want to distribute the putters, so we are busy setting up this. In the US we have several ways to go, and it will be informed on our website as we move forward with distribution in the US.

So putting is ALL ABOUT SCIENCE, at least the important things!

www.profoundputters.com

Keep it square:)

Bernt Stellander
Founder & Designer

[Reebus]

Nice review, nice putter.  The thing I like about the putter is
how "clean" it looks from address when you have it lined up
correctly.  I think the idea is great!  That is why I like this site
so much.  You don't get reviews like this anywhere else. 

[Mr. Doug]

Thanks for stopping in Bernt. That may go down as the longest "first post" but you had a lot to talk about.

I only wish that more of you could get a chance to roll a few with this putter. It's a lot less gimmick-y when you putt around with it. The lines are very clean, and the orange never bothers you...if you are set up right.

[ProfoundPutters]

Sorry 'bout that long post, but then I guess I covered a lot of potential questions to come down the road.

My compliments to your website, it is clean and simple, I like it. Great to have a community like this to discuss our common passion, the love for the game within the game and the tools to use.

Bernt Stellander
Founder & Designer
Profound Putters

[ProfoundPutters]

FYI, we introduced the concept under a different name  at the merchandise show in 2006 at a prototype stage. The name was then Pilot Putters, but the Pilot name was impossible to get registered as trademark.

In case some saw the article last summer (July/August) in Golf Illustrated:
http://www.profoundputters.com/documents/headoftheclass.pdf

Thanks Reebus!

Bernt Stellander
Founder & Designer
Profound Putters

[smitty]

Bernt, thank you for stopping by and giving us all that helpful information.
Be sure to stop by with updates…

--
smitty

[DavidR]

This looks like a pretty neat concept and would probably make a great training tool if nothing else. Thanks again for another great review Doug.

Bernt- Any chance of a lefty model? I couldn't tell from your web site if these were going to be available.

[ckay]

Hey Bernt, welcome to the site and thank you for a more in-depth description behind your putter.  Maybe I can come across one at a retailer and give it a few rolls.  Best of luck. 

[ProfoundPutters]

Thanks ckay and DavidR.
We will make lefties and they will be avaliable this summer.

DavidR:
Why not bring your conforming training tool on the tournement, for confidence and reasurrance of  consistant set up.......that's what I feel make us unique.  A visual feedback constantly and lively communicating to the player at all times by what he sees and perceives.....

Well, try the feel of this putter, and you will see that it can compete with the best milled putters costing almost double, this due to the softer feeling the insert BEHIND the face gives......

Approx 80-88 % of "feel" is sound, think about that .... - this is why pro's cannot distinguish forged irons from cast in tests.....at least when sound is taken out of the equation. So I wanted to leave the pure audio feedback from a steel face from those softer balls. The feedback from the pros are that they love the feel. Try before you buy. But sorry we're not distributing yet, but will inform ASAP:)

I love the positive american attitude, even towards myself, trying to sell my story. That says a lot about americans, who really like it when people try to live their dream and passion, I love that!!!
Here in norway (FYI, the homeland of Karsten Solheim) the attitude is that you shouldn't stick your head out, if you do, then they want to chop it off. Or at least they are very sceptical in the beginning, but it's like the saying "you don't make a prophet in your homeland".

Keep it square

Bernt

[ajpoe]

My only questions is, what if you believe your eyes are not to be directly above the ball, but just inside?  I have been taught that directly over results in aiming to the left.  Does the "perfect set-up" involve having your eye directly over the ball?

[ProfoundPutters]

ajpoe.
That is the biggest misconception regarding aim!
A false test some use to prove what you say, is a test where you have poles  put down on a line towards the target on the level surface. When twisting your head, it APPEARS that you WERE outside the plane consisting of ball center and target line. This is only due to the manipulation you have done to the view, by the tilt of the head!

This is easily proven by having a vertical line hanging to check if the player when looking down at the perfect set up /either checked by the mirror on the ground, or using our 3Dinsight alignment system;)  ) - then you can see that the eyes are perfectly on plane BEFORE the manilupation starts by the tilting for an incorrect chekc up of set up position of the eyes. Please forgive me the explenation, I'm Norwegian, so please ask if you didn't understand my example and explenation.

Everything in putting is parallel, eyes parallel on plane OVER THE BALL, stance parallel, every putt is a straight putt!!! so to be able to get the correct view for getting the ball over the intermediate target, then the eyes have to be over the ball center and targetline plane! This is simple geometry, and tests done in our optometry institute shows clearly that when inside this plane, then you aim to the right side of the hole.
But many with this incorrect set up that doesn't practise so the brain adapts to this imbalance of the sensory system (between position sencors and visual part of brain) will inadvertantly over compensate and mis to the left side of the hole, pulling it back, so to speak.....

The reason pro's adapt is due to thousands of practise hours for the brain to accept a false set up. Annicka's putting coatch Henry Reis is very clear on the issue of getting the eyes over the ball for a True Aim!

It is like you shooting with a gun, and you definetly want the alignment/aiming aids to fall in line with your dominant eye. This translates directly to putting, by the parallel eyes on the vertical plane made up by ball center and targetline. See attached picture- hope it is included

Hope you understand my point of view, coming from optometry background. BTW my system is neutral to dominant eye issue, so  a counterdominant player (righthanded - left eye dominant) does not have to manipulate the ball position OR shaft angle (forward tilt at set up) to get the alignment system working, unlike those systems that have indicators 90 degrees to the targetline!

Bernt Stellander
Founder & Designer

[smitty]

Bernt,

It is great to have you on board…   
Great posts, good reading.

--
smitty

[ProfoundPutters]

That is very kind of you Smitty!

ajpoe.
A short comment:
A player with "inside view" does not get any help from putters today.
But it is actually possible to fit  the Dark Ace to a slight toe up, then he at least get a visual feedback so he can become consistant in his "incorrect" and rehersed possition with the eyes! But this is not something we talk about, because my philosophy is to let the player get the best margins and ofcourse the correct view so the ball will predictable roll over the intermediate target you chose. This way it takes less time to get comfy on the aim, when you can predict better where the ball will actually be rolling.

The second problem in terms of margins mentioned, is that a level putter will have less potential for sidespin put on the ball, since the toe then will be more quiet through impact, and thereby will inflict less sidespin on the ball for more predictable feel for distance. That is why we don't want to talk about this unique visual feedback our putters will have, even for the players with inside view, with a toe up fitted putter.
These players already have a pretty much inside square inside stroke, so they already have made it harder for their timing by squaring the  face at the exact perfect time. This is not my philosophy, I want to keep it simple and give the player the advantages he can get, by getting margins from all aspects of the positioning and the balance of the putter, also in the putters motion, stroke path, as square as possible around the strike zone.

Sorry the long  comment, hope it explains a little more regarding your very good comment ajpoe !

[drewspin]

Bernt,

I am excited to try your putter as a training device.  Perhaps you can elaborate on how your "hide the orange" concept incorporates the lie angle of the putter.  Do all your putters come in a set lie angle? Does hiding the orange work the same if the lie angle is made flatter or more upright?

Thanks!

[ProfoundPutters]

drewspin.
We provide 2 lie angles, 68 standard and 70 slight upright.....

The putter should be fitted on a level surface with a level clubhead at your preferred hands position. This way the 3D visual system will make sure your eyes are parallel and over the center of the clkubhead and thereby over the ball when positioned on the center of the face.

When on ondulation, when you take your normal hands position, then the putterhead wil be level, and due to ondulation the heel or toe will be closest to the ground, BUT the eyes will still be over the ball center targetline plane for a True Aim.  See picture.

In other words, a critical visual feedback system like ours will also make sure that there is a constant hands-eyes-clubhead relationship for a consistant stroke!

See picture..

[ProfoundPutters]

Sorry, didn't answer the question to well...

The alignment system works in the direction straight up from the center of the clubhead, so the point of finding correct lie angle is to find the shaft angle and length so you take your normal position with the hands, which you can repset when on ondulation, then you just position your head and eyes so you don't see orange and the white parallel lines/track framing the ball, then you are perfect set up and perfect aim.

So when fitted, you fit the shaft angle to normal hands position and eyes so you don't see orange, then you just take your normal stand on the green and hide orange, then you can bet your eyes are over the ball, every time in the same position.

So the lie angles does not affect the orange or the lines, they always point straight up, cause we want the clubhead to be level and the eyes over the ball, always, and repeatadly!

[drchipinski]

Will Profound be at the 2008 show?

[Skully188]

Bernt,

I recently discovered your putter thru the Golf Digest Hot List, that led to my finding this site, which is awesome by the way...

As a golfer who needs a LOT of help when it comes to putting and alignment because I struggle with vision problems, I am very interested in trying your product. Seeing that this thread was initially started in March of '07, can you provide any info on when you think you will be set up with distributors in the US?

Thanks.

[Mr. Doug]

I'll ask him...he's about 200-yards from me right now.

[Skully188]

Sweet!!

Guess he is at the PGA Show then...

Thanks for the quick reply

[CameronKid66]

It is a very interesting concept, I am not a mallet type player but I could see myself giving this putter a try.  I like the alignment concept, specially the choice of orange as the color.  I like the weight also, it takes a lot of hand movement out of play.

I wish ProFound success in the putter market.  I want to thank Bernt for taking the time to explain in more detail the product.

Hector

[mr.upndown]

It looks like a great training aid. I've always putted eyes directly over the ball. I'd like to have Russell give one a try.....

Chris

[Mr. Doug]

From Bernt Stellander: With the addition of the Dark Ace to the Golf Digest Hot List, we've had a very successful show. We're looking at several USA Distributors and should have an announcement shortly.

[apprenti23]

am I correct in my exchange rates... roughly 364 american? are these things bendable? i need like 6* flat? how about loft? can you get different lofts?

i think it's a great concept BUT if you're a person who struggles with aim (face square to target line) you probably can't read a green worth a lick anyway. I would hope that the person would spend 50 of there 364 american on a putting lesson and then use their ram zebra to get it in the hole.

[Mr. Doug]

Wait till they have US Distribution....they'll be a bit less.

[hurricanewarning]

Does anybody know if  I can have this baby with a midsize grip?