Topic: Perfection (Read 559 times)

bargolf · « **on:** February 11, 2010, 04:14:06 pm »

I am having a career crisis moment. Let's say.....

I have just been named the Putting Genie.

I can grant one of two wishes.

I can show you the perfect putting technique.

Or

I can show give you the advice to perfect your technique.

Which would you choose?

CourtGolf · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2010, 04:21:21 pm »

HEY ! What happened to the third wish where we get to choose a pair of pants that have pockets that are always full of $100 bills !!

I'll take the advice - that seems to carry an allowance for individual technique instead of thinking that there is only one way to putt.

sandbagger · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2010, 04:21:53 pm »

The advice to perfect my technique! I believe everyone is different, so how can one technique work for all? For someone to be able to decipher my shortcomings (with my personal stroke) on the green, then lend advice would be awesome!

bargolf · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2010, 04:26:15 pm »

Quote from: CourtGolf on February 11, 2010, 04:21:21 pm

HEY ! What happened to the third wish where we get to choose a pair of pants that have pockets that are always full of $100 bills !!

I'll take the advice - that seems to carry an allowance for individual technique instead of thinking that there is only one way to putt.

LOL Lack of hundreds is why I am having the crisis!!!

drewspin · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2010, 05:08:28 pm »

You will make more money with Option A, but your students will have more success with Option B.

I would select Option B

jh · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2010, 11:19:46 pm »

Bruce,

I'm sure you can do majic, but miracles take a lot longer. I'll go with option A because it'd take more than majic to help my stroke!

On a more serious note, I hate my stroke and if I knew I had the "perfect technique" I'd be a lot more confident.

golfer42384 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2010, 04:53:17 pm »

I would to advice to perfect MY strategy.

JelUltra · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2010, 06:16:57 pm »

I agree with golfer -

I'd want you to see my natural tendencies and you layout a plan that reinforces them to a consistent stroke. Then at least I know I'll make solid contact and a consistent stroke (i.e. start the ball on-line) with what I got.

Will Par · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2010, 06:39:25 pm »

I'm going to take a position opposed to both choices. I don't think there is a "perfect stroke" that will work for everyone. And I don't think anyone will benefit from trying to perfect any specific stroking technique. To me, putting is about using the eyes to see the line in a way that the mind can translate into an effective stroke. Every putt is different. The stoke is always a result of what you see. You can perfect your setup and grip, and you can be consistent in the muscles you use to initiate the stroke, but beyond that putting is about using the eyes and mind. It's not mechanical, it mental. At least, that is how it works for me.

MSaternus · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2010, 06:41:40 pm »

Option B for sure. I don't want to worry about swinging any of my clubs "perfectly" or like anyone else, I just want to get the best results out of my swing.

Clemsonfan · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2010, 10:24:47 am »

Bruce,

I would opt for perfecting my technique. The perfect technique might not work due to a variety of issues like swing path or setup.

That said, there need to be some parameters in place to perfect your specific technique. If you take a long stroke and decelerate into impact, it might be tough to improve!

Good luck.

tbws6 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2010, 11:09:33 am »

"....the advice to perfect your technique."

bargolf · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2010, 08:31:02 am »

Thanks for the advice guys.

cja09 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2010, 08:48:43 am »

Quote from: bargolf on February 15, 2010, 08:31:02 am

Thanks for the advice guys.

So when the genie gives that advice I sure hope you can share a little with us! I would opt for the advice too.

bargolf · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2010, 11:36:06 am »

Quote from: Will Par on February 12, 2010, 06:39:25 pm

I'm going to take a position opposed to both choices. I don't think there is a "perfect stroke" that will work for everyone. And I don't think anyone will benefit from trying to perfect any specific stroking technique. To me, putting is about using the eyes to see the line in a way that the mind can translate into an effective stroke. Every putt is different. The stoke is always a result of what you see. You can perfect your setup and grip, and you can be consistent in the muscles you use to initiate the stroke, but beyond that putting is about using the eyes and mind. It's not mechanical, it mental. At least, that is how it works for me.

Interesting theory Will. I need to ask this question. If there is no consistency how can you predict how the putt will react? How hard to hit it. How to control the face to start the ball on the chosen line. etc.

Will Par · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2010, 04:58:28 pm »

For distance control I visualize the ball rolling into the hole for the last four feet or so. The mind can figure out how hard to stroke the putt if it "sees" the ball rolling as it comes to a stop. When I visualize this portion of the putt correctly, I almost always get the speed correct. This is one of the first things I do when I walk on the green.

Stroking the ball on line is just a matter of seeing the line and seeing a spot on the back of the ball that, when struck, will start the ball on that line. I just strike that spot with a square putter face. It is easy to square the putter face to a spot on the back of the ball and it is easy to impact that spot during the stroke. I never attempt to aim the putter face at a point in the distance. I just square it to the back of the ball. It's like hammering a nail, you don't have to think about squaring the hammer.

For control and consistency, I stroke the ball exclusively with my right arm and hand and I don't allow any change in the angle of the elbow or wrist prior to impact. The right arm, hand, and putter all swing in one motion from my right shoulder. I think it is important to hold the putter as upright as possible, like Steve Stricker, to get the putter swinging in a pendulum motion. I had to work hard to find a position for the left hand that didn't influence the stroking motion of the right. I practiced a lot using only the right hand when developing this method.

It's not complicated, but it did take me years to figure it out. The stars seemed to align on this combination of putting elements several months ago and I've been putting great ever since. I no longer have any desire to change putters or to try to do anything differently. I probably just re-discovered a method I learned in my youth. I think the visual elements are more important than the mechanical elements and I believe it is the visual elements that really make the stroke effective.

One last thing. I don't want to have my stroke analyzed. I'm sure it's not perfect, but I'm confident that it works.

bargolf · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2010, 07:20:29 pm »

Quote from: Will Par on February 17, 2010, 04:58:28 pm

For distance control I visualize the ball rolling into the hole for the last four feet or so. The mind can figure out how hard to stroke the putt if it "sees" the ball rolling as it comes to a stop. When I visualize this portion of the putt correctly, I almost always get the speed correct. This is one of the first things I do when I walk on the green.

Stroking the ball on line is just a matter of seeing the line and seeing a spot on the back of the ball that, when struck, will start the ball on that line. I just strike that spot with a square putter face. It is easy to square the putter face to a spot on the back of the ball and it is easy to impact that spot during the stroke. I never attempt to aim the putter face at a point in the distance. I just square it to the back of the ball. It's like hammering a nail, you don't have to think about squaring the hammer.

For control and consistency, I stroke the ball exclusively with my right arm and hand and I don't allow any change in the angle of the elbow or wrist prior to impact. The right arm, hand, and putter all swing in one motion from my right shoulder. I think it is important to hold the putter as upright as possible, like Steve Stricker, to get the putter swinging in a pendulum motion. I had to work hard to find a position for the left hand that didn't influence the stroking motion of the right. I practiced a lot using only the right hand when developing this method.

It's not complicated, but it did take me years to figure it out. The stars seemed to align on this combination of putting elements several months ago and I've been putting great ever since. I no longer have any desire to change putters or to try to do anything differently. I probably just re-discovered a method I learned in my youth. I think the visual elements are more important than the mechanical elements and I believe it is the visual elements that really make the stroke effective.

One last thing. I don't want to have my stroke analyzed. I'm sure it's not perfect, but I'm confident that it works.

Will
Sounds like you have a strategy that works for you. You are a lucky guy to have a method you like. I am curious why the fear of more information? It isn't luck, you have knowledge that works for you. It seems to me more knowledge would be beneficial.

By the back of the ball do you mean on the hole side of the ball or the putter side of the ball?

One more question. What if you don't have years to figure it out?

I spent the weekend with a D1 golf team. All great players, all know they can putt better, all need it to happen sooner than later and not one that needed a change in technique.

bargolf · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2010, 07:31:58 pm »

Will,

One more question. Didn't you perfect your own technique? To me you developed your mechanics and now you concentrate on using your mechanics to make your best stroke. The ability to hit the ball on line and the correct distance is all you need from the mechanics of a putting stroke. I agree from there it is all visual.

It only gets simple once you find the technique that works. You can focus on line and distance becasue your mechanics are reliable.

If you don't mind I would like to take this one more step. You have developed a successful strategy, do you think your method is universal or unique for you?

Bruce

Will Par · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2010, 10:38:13 pm »

I don't want to have a stroke analysis because I don't believe it would provide any information that would help me putt better. And it might get me thinking about mechanical aspects of the stroke that would distract from the visual aspects that work for me.

It really shouldn't take years to "figure" it out. It took me about 8 months from the time I really set a goal for myself to straighten out my putting. I spent a lot of time reading, taking notes, and experimenting on the carpet during those months. If you have the book, Bobby Jones On Golf, read section 3 in the chapter on putting titled "looking at the ball". That explains precisely what I mean by back of the ball. It's a great lesson.

I think there are probably dozens of ways to get the mechanics solid and consistent. But I think the right (dominant) hand must be used to obtain the really great feel. After that I think a player has to find a visual method that leads to distance control and a visual method that converts the read into an effective stroke. It's hard to explain on a forum like this and I'm not sure which piece of the puzzle made it all come together for me.

bargolf · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2010, 09:31:03 am »

Will,

I agree with everthin g you say with two exceptions.

1. The right hand method only works for a limited few. The reason is visual just as you claim, but for about two thirds of our test group the right hand stroke results in pulls. These players vary the length of their stroke to the length of the putt to provide an accurate feel. Of our professional staff we have 2 who putt right handed, 3 who are left hand dominant, and two who are neutral (shoulders).

2, I don't think anyone will ever know how good they can be without some sort of feedback. Obviously, I have to feel that way because it is the way I make my living, but I have had enough success to feel as confident about my approach as you do yours.

P.S. We teach to the players method or tendencies and not to one method. I have Jones book. The method he describes only works if you can visualize the line from a side on view. Some can some can't.

Will Par · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2010, 11:58:40 am »

Bruce, I enjoy hearing your thoughts. We each see putting from a different perspective. I have only my experience and my stroke to base my theories on. You have evaluated the strokes of hundreds of your students. Your P.S. identifies what I consider to be the primary obstacle to effective putting: the ability to visualize the line of the putt from the side on view.

My eyes are only effective looking straight ahead. From side on, my eyes don't perceive the line accurately. I can't use a putter with a sight line because either the sight line or the face looks misaligned. I can't use a sight line on the ball for the same reason. But I have learned to trace the line back to my ball visually and mentally draw that line across the top of the ball to see the point on the back perimeter of the ball that I must hit with my stroke. That may be the one element that leads to my success. I have overcome my inability to see the line accurately from the side on view.

As to the right hand, when I first started practicing, there was an obvious tendency to take the putter back outside the line. My practice focused on avoiding that tendency. I basically learned to swing the putter on line with the right hand. I'm sure others putt effectively using the left or a combination of the left and right. I decided to focus on the right hand because that hand has the most feel. Nicklaus and Ballesteros were the only two pros I know of that wrote that they take the putter back with the right hand. So its not a popular method.

I would be interested in hearing how others have overcome the difficulty of seeing the line accurately side on. I think every good putter has found a solution to this problem.

bargolf · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2010, 10:45:28 am »

Will

Thanks for sharing. I hope players looking to improve read your posts. I think anyone looking to putt better has to do what you have done. With some help or on your own. Commitment to decisions seems to be the answer.

I had two more division 1 players yesterday. Each with a different profile to their stroke. I had to work pretty hard to convince them that there wasn't a best way.

Ended up one shoulders only. One left hand lead and the coach hitting down using his right hand as the lead.

Bruce

nvgolfdude · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2010, 01:11:54 pm »

Fascinating read here Bruce and Will. Thanks for the insightful exchange.

I agree with will that the visual element is critical to putting success. As Bruce knows, I think that it is more complicated than just ability to see the line from a side-on position. I think that it goes to the player's vision itself. For instance, if a player is right eye and right hand dominant, they will tend to have a different approach than someone who is left eye and left hand dominant - assuming both are putting right handed. Now if you add visual irregularities to the mix it gets even more complicated.

I believe that putting well is a more athletic endeavor than it is often given credit for being. The fine motor skills that are used (feel, touch, distance control), the sense of your own body and how to get it into the optimal position for you to get the ball on line with your stroke, the sense of timing to control the distance and pace of the putter head and to square it through impact, all of these are very athletic skills. Then there is the intuition or judgement that plays in with how to adjust to slope, break, wind, mositure, grain, bright sun, flat light, temperature, impediments, ball marks, sand, etc...

IMO good putters are remarkably skilled people who have developed their talent through discovery and practice.

indyvai · « **Reply #23 on:** March 15, 2010, 02:36:18 pm »

Now... THAT was an interesting read...

I find it interesting how so many people take Will's approach. Not necessarily because of the Zen-like quality of his specific methodology, but because people who don't know any better tend to think that putting is easy. Maybe it is easier than some of us give it credit for, and I can't even remember what it used to be like to putt before I "learned" how to. I wish that I could revert back to not thinking about putting as much as I do. But I am expecting my Eureka moment at the start of this season...

BUT! To get back to the original topic... either one for me. As long as I could be the best putter I can be... I would putt with a skirt on if I had to!

bargolf · « **Reply #24 on:** March 16, 2010, 10:14:27 am »

More and more I am finding that once you understand the mechanics of your stroke that is the time you can forget them. For example is we find that you can control the putter best leading with your left hand with a slightly open set up. Then the only thing you need to decide is how hard to hit it. Or if you are better controlling with your right hand and releasing the toe through the ball then just decide how hard you need to hit it.

BUT until you have a grasp of your mechanics and why they are unique to you, you will just keep guessing and changing.

cbrian · « **Reply #25 on:** March 16, 2010, 11:02:02 am »

I usually teach people that the easiest way to gain confidence is through better practice, but then again I don't have a puttlab at my disposal. I can understand what you mean though. If you have good information about how to create your best stroke, you don't have to start all the guess work when you miss a putt. You can accept that maybe it was a misread or a just a bad stroke and move on.

However, I can also see how someone that has already found a consistent pattern and good self confidence might begin to question himself if he started learning how his putting stroke actually worked. Feel makes him think hes doing one thing and then you tell him hes actually doing something else, it could kill his confidence in his ability.

I think it would ultimately boil down to your ability to understand the students learning style and your ability to translate the numbers into something he can use... which I'm pretty sure you are good at by now.

bargolf · « **Reply #26 on:** March 16, 2010, 12:38:09 pm »

Quote from: cbrian on March 16, 2010, 11:02:02 am

I usually teach people that the easiest way to gain confidence is through better practice, but then again I don't have a puttlab at my disposal. I can understand what you mean though. If you have good information about how to create your best stroke, you don't have to start all the guess work when you miss a putt. You can accept that maybe it was a misread or a just a bad stroke and move on.

However, I can also see how someone that has already found a consistent pattern and good self confidence might begin to question himself if he started learning how his putting stroke actually worked. Feel makes him think hes doing one thing and then you tell him hes actually doing something else, it could kill his confidence in his ability.

I think it would ultimately boil down to your ability to understand the students learning style and your ability to translate the numbers into something he can use... which I'm pretty sure you are good at by now.

I don't use Puttlab to teach much anymore. The numbers mean something to me but certainly not to the players. The technology was great for research and it helped me understand why so many methods could be successful. The ball doesn't need much information. It will get direction from face angle, which is controlled by rotation and path direction. And it will get speed information by how fast the putter is moving and the loft of the putter at impact. If you learn what impacts this information you can help someone with their putting stroke.

Don't ever force a player into a posture or make the putter go in a direction you think is best. People do things for a reason. Vision, length of arms, width of shoulders, natural tempo everything matters. When you force them to change you just bring new problems into play. Look at the player and ask your self how can I get the face to square from the set up they are comfortable with? Does the putter they are using help or hurt. Fit is huge, maybe the most important factor. Sorry about the lecture. Technology does not tell you how to help a player.

cbrian · « **Reply #27 on:** March 16, 2010, 01:56:58 pm »

I was "fortunate" enough to get to work with Mike Shannon when the technology was first blooming and it (that portion of the lesson) was awful. He started throwing numbers out that I had no idea how to compute or how to turn into something actionable. So I understand what you mean by "technology does not tell you..." My point was just the technology has given you the insight into how certain things affect the stroke. For instance you know what kind of putter would help stroke X, whereas I, someone who hasn't had access to that experience or information, wouldn't know what might help and what might hurt.

And I don't mind the "lecture." It is good to hear the opinions of people that have more experience than I do.

bargolf · « **Reply #28 on:** March 16, 2010, 02:09:34 pm »

If I would get off my "other end" and finish the work I might be able to help on the putter selection part.

Clemsonfan · « **Reply #29 on:** March 18, 2010, 08:56:29 pm »

I think the putter selection guidance would be invaluable. I haven't had enough success in putting to know that all is well when I hit a bad patch. Given that, I often consider other putters, but don't change too often.

News:

Author Topic: Perfection (Read 559 times)